Author Topic: The Wonderful Clutch.......l  (Read 1823 times)

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Offline paulotex

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #60 on: April 08, 2019, 02:08:59 pm »
Great help! So here's the plan: this evening I will check Lidl close to me, in Oxford and in Wallingford. If I can find the Parkside impact wrench, I'll get it. Otherwise, I get a cheap battery operated one for £67 from ebay. I'd rather do that than pay £50 for the Parkside one. I work outside, in a reserved park space, without much access to mains power, so I prefer battery operated power tools.

I'll report here the results of my expedition.

EDIT: Got the Parkside impact wrench. £35. Thanks again for the help. Will report over the weekend how my new efforts go.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 06:39:33 pm by paulotex »

Offline Martin-k12

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #61 on: April 08, 2019, 08:43:05 pm »
I used the dewalt one blasted it off no problem.....
Sorry to hear about the fluid ... more because that shit ain't cheap lol.

Theres a basket on ebay at the min I'm trying to get cheap to use as a test run for refurb JUST NEED SPRINGS ....anyone ?

Offline Andym535

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #62 on: April 09, 2019, 09:57:57 am »
... Got the tools (clutch basket holder, crankshaft blocking pin, alignment tool for the tensioned gears) from https://www.online-parts.co.uk/. Waiting for all these parts to arrive.


Did you get any discount? Seems they offer a discount for car/bike club members; just wondered if EuroKClub counts as a club to them. Does someone (Brian?) need to register with them?
If it matters what gear you’re in, the engine’s too small.

Offline Phmode

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #63 on: April 09, 2019, 11:57:56 am »
I've just tried to 'register' the forum but it is all Greek to me; just joking Costas...

I've mailed them for info.

Thanks for the heads-up. I applaud you  :D

Offline Phmode

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #64 on: April 10, 2019, 10:27:43 am »
This is the response I got from the guys at Online Parts - https://www.online-parts.co.uk/

“Hi Brian,
 
We do offer discount, we offer it for BMW Car Club members, but any customers that you can point in our direction get them to say they are from your forum and I will set their account to qualify for the discount when they have set it up.
 
I just need to know the name of your forum so I can look at it and so I know the name/link when people say where they are from.
 
Kind regards,
 
Anthony Bradshaw
Parts Advisor
Rybrook Warwick
Heathcote Lane
Warwick
CV34 6SP
Phone - 01926 333888
Fax Number - 01926 333841
Email Address: abradshaw@rybrookbmw.co.uk
Dealer Code - 33180 - BMW
Web: www.rybrookbmw.co.uk
Online Parts Store: https://www.online-parts.co.uk/
Ebay store: http://stores.ebay.co.uk/rybrookbmw

I'll post details up in somewhere appropriate along with some 'simple' instructions.

The details are now in “How To - Tech & Forum Support”...

https://eurokclub.bike/index.php?board=13.0
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 10:44:21 am by Phmode »

Offline paulotex

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #65 on: April 13, 2019, 06:48:31 pm »
Update on my first time removing the clutch:

The Lidl impact wrench did the job! I was glad to have learned that it is good to first use the impact wrench in tightening mode, and only after use it to break the nut. Indeed, that worked for me just fine.

Took me a couple of hours to understand how to assemble the new plates and disks, and also how to remove and insert the basket on the bike. Ended up doing it a few times, I think I now know how to do it (knock on wood).

BUT!

I think I did something wrong, and the clutch is not disengaging completely. Can it be that the Barnett kit has some extra disks and plates? It seemed to me that the last disk didn't really fit well in the assembly. There is always the possibility that I did something wrong, but I just thought I'd ask here. Is it known that one has to leave the one disk & plate out for the K1300R?

In any case, I have to stop now, I'm exhausted. 7 hours straight.  :P

Tomorrow I'll have another go, removing everything and checking the  stack of disks and plates again.
 
 

Offline Martin-k12

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #66 on: April 14, 2019, 10:29:01 am »
Hey Paul,

In my time trolling for info on these I've never heard of leaving anything out.

If you did you would have to leave both a steel and a friction to keep the order which i'm guessing would leave way to much space.

What exactly are your symptoms?
I came across some information saying if you increase the oil flow you have to improve its removal hence the slots in the picture I posted at the start of this thread, but to my understanding that only increases drag a bit causing clunky changes (or clunkier).

Did you make sure to put the last plate out of rotation with the rest? Have a look at the first pic I posted you'll see what I mean.

I'll keep checking this as the day goes on so if you got any question I will do my best to help.


Offline kennyc

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #67 on: April 14, 2019, 12:51:16 pm »
is it possible that you left one of the original steel plates in situ? the Barnett clutch should have exactly what you need no extras. count the old plates and tell us how many you have

Offline paulotex

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #68 on: April 14, 2019, 03:20:31 pm »
Thank you for all the help. I found out what was the problem:

My clutch has two extra rings, that are placed inside, closer to the engine. The set of 8 friction plates and 7 discs go "on top" (from inside the bike to outside) of these. One of the rings is narrow and conical, and the first friction plate has a wider inner diameter than the rest, so that it clears that ring. This short video (in spanish) shows the issue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv5Gxkw4Atk
(note that the placement order of the two rings is wrong in the video, but you get the idea).

Apparently recent Barnett clutches come with a different plate (the green one in the video) that also has a wider inner diameter. But unfortunately my set did not come with that. Either I leave out the conical ring, or I find the special first plate.

Since the original clutch was not too worn at all (all plates seemed identical and still with plenty of friction area), I decided to fit it back in. In the mean time I will look for a Barnett first plate. Any suggestions on how I can get one?

So after 3 days of work (last Sunday, yesterday and today) and spending £300 (clutch, tools, bolts and gasket), I now have everything exactly as it was when I started.  :P

Plus points are:

* The oil chain is now tightened.
* I know that the clutch disks and plates are ok. With 30k miles, it means that the lubrication is ok.
* I know that I have the good quality basket bearing. Thanks to @stevel for the suggestion to check that.
* I know that my clutch basket springs are loose. That is probably where most of the rattling comes from.
* I know that I have fresh hydraulic fluid.
* I can remove and assemble the clutch in less than two hours. 8)

However, the biting point is still with the lever very close to the grip. Still have to work on that.

A big thanks to everyone for the help. This is not over, I am now looking for that extra plate from Barnett.


Offline kennyc

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #69 on: April 14, 2019, 09:28:20 pm »
wish I could help but on my old clutch it was the plates either end of the pack that were worn and I'm guessing the one you need is one of those? could you not have reassembled the clutch using the old end plate but new intermediates ? you could contact barnett or see if it is possible to get whatever shim that was fitted to the older clutch that didn't require the larger first plate ?
mine seemed to go in with no problems so presumably is a newr version? how old is yours? is there any chance you can return it as unfit for purpose? 

Offline TomL

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #70 on: April 14, 2019, 10:13:04 pm »
You do know that the springs are loose in a brand new clutch basket.
As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everybody is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.

Offline paulotex

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #71 on: April 15, 2019, 08:35:07 am »
You do know that the springs are loose in a brand new clutch basket.
No, I didn't know that. I thought they would come tight and get loose with wear. So this seems like "normal".

wish I could help but on my old clutch it was the plates either end of the pack that were worn and I'm guessing the one you need is one of those? could you not have reassembled the clutch using the old end plate but new intermediates ? you could contact barnett or see if it is possible to get whatever shim that was fitted to the older clutch that didn't require the larger first plate ?
mine seemed to go in with no problems so presumably is a newr version? how old is yours? is there any chance you can return it as unfit for purpose? 
Thanks for being available. What I need is the one closer to the engine (more inside), so yes, that is one of your worn ones.
I thought of reassembling mixing the plates like you suggest (first from the original clutch, plus 7 from Barnett), but then in a few years I would have a worn first plate and half worn Barnett. I prefer to replace everything if I have to. So my next possibility (if I can't find that first green plate from Barnett) is to use the Barnett clutch and leave out the extra conical ring.
I did contact Barnett, I'm waiting for an answer.
This is a 2010 K1300R, bought 10 months ago, previous history not fully known. I have a BMW service receipt from 2014 at 14k miles, no mentioning of clutch there.
I can't return the Barnett, since it was bought off ebay from a private seller. He said he got the wrong part, he need one for his K1300GT.

This is not terrible. My plan is to keep the Barnett until the current clutch wears and then fit it in. If I can't find the green plate, I will fit the Barnett without the conical ring.

About the friction point / clutch lever problem: the bike came with after market "sport" levers (some aluminium short levers). No brand. It can be that they are not really fit for the bike. I might have to find some levers (no original levers came with the bike).

Offline stevel

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #72 on: April 15, 2019, 10:03:38 am »
Ok...

I had heard that the Barnett packs are a plate short - many people in this position just take the least worn plate from their old set and use that with the Barnett set - many of them reported back that it worked OK.
Your old 1st plate (the thin one) is almost certainly the one with the most wear on it, so it probably won't help to re-use it. The conical spring was put in there to help with clutch pack separation when the clutch is disengaged (but in reality, it was only a small part of that problem, and didn't do that much to help - plenty have replaced it with a full sized plate with no difference).

I would take a plate from the middle of the old pack and use that as a 1st plate, with the rest of the Barnett pack in there as well. Do it all up again, and try the clutch - see what stage your juddering problem is at now, and take it from there.

Also, well worth getting hold of a cheap BMW clutch lever, as they have an adjustment on them (not sure if your aftermarket one does) that changes the biting point quite a lot on the extreme settings.

Is the bike rideable (when the clutch is installed!)? If you can get it to SW London I'd be happy for you to pop round for a day - I have all the tools, a working bike, and 2 spare clutches, so plenty to play around with.


Steve

Offline paulotex

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #73 on: April 15, 2019, 06:57:15 pm »
Hi Steve:

Quote
I had heard that the Barnett packs are a plate short
That is not my case, the Barnett is complete with 8 plates and 7 discs.
Quote
I would take a plate from the middle of the old pack and use that as a 1st plate
I don't think I can do that, since my first plate has to be thinner also, to clear the ring.
Quote
The conical spring was put in there to help with clutch pack separation when the clutch is disengaged (but in reality, it was only a small part of that problem, and didn't do that much to help - plenty have replaced it with a full sized plate with no difference).
Yes! That is a great info. I just thought that removing that conical ring would be a mistake, since it was placed there by BMW. But if you know that it does not make much difference, then I can simply remove it, and use the Barnett kit I got. Problem solved.

Quote
Also, well worth getting hold of a cheap BMW clutch lever, as they have an adjustment on them (not sure if your aftermarket one does) that changes the biting point quite a lot on the extreme settings.
My aftermarket one is also adjustable. But I have it at one of the extremes, with the lever further away from the grip. And still the biting point is very close to the grip. I have heard that when riding in Europe (France, Germany, Switzerland) the police my check if the levers comply with some kind of European norms (ABE or TUV). Since the lever I have don't have a brand, I suspect they don't comply. I might look for some that do.

Quote
Is the bike rideable (when the clutch is installed!)? If you can get it to SW London I'd be happy for you to pop round for a day - I have all the tools, a working bike, and 2 spare clutches, so plenty to play around with.
Thanks a lot for that kind invitation! The bike is rideable, I have inserted a small wedged that increases the actuation of the lever, and now I have an "ok" biting point. I still have to check if it is getting worse or not.

I'll be away in Portugal for Easter (flying there, not riding), but I'll be back next week. If I feel the biting point getting worse again, I'll do the clutch once more, and this time I'll place the Barnett in and leave the conical ring out.

Today on my short commute to work (10 min, a few traffic lights) I did not hear any rattling. I know I improved the tension on the oil chain, but that was mostly it (besides replacing the hydraulic fluid 10 days ago).


Offline paulotex

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #74 on: April 28, 2019, 02:41:47 pm »
A final update on my part (for now):

I was able to find a screw on the aftermarket clutch lever that adjusts the biting point. It was on the middle position, I adjusted it a bit so now I have the biting point further away from the grip. What a relief. For the next 1000 miles I'll be paying particular attention to the biting point, to see if it moves or not. (I was under the impression that it was moving, hence this whole issue. But perhaps it was just the very old hydraulic fluid.)

The clutch is still the old original one, I am keeping the Barnett for when the time comes ;-) I now know (thanks to Steve) that I can use it without the conical ring and I won't notice too much difference in vibration.

The rattling noise when warm at idle is gone. Since the only real adjustment I did was on the oil pump chain, I suspect that was the issue.

I seem to experience a bit more buzzing on the hands at+3k RPM, but it just might be that I am a bit more attentive now to these details.

Thanks for all the help.