EuroKClub
General forum area => The Euro K Club Lounge => Topic started by: Andym535 on May 17, 2019, 12:18:55 pm
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My obsession with buying tools that I don’t really need has got to the point where I’m thinking of getting a Lathe and milling machine. Many years ago I did an engineering apprenticeship so I do know how they work, just after any good/bad experiences of different makes.
I know the first question will be, what do you want to do with it? Although I’d like to say it’s so I’ll be ready if BMW stop supplying parts, a more honest answer would be ‘to convert useful chunks of metal into swarf’.
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I got myself a 12" with 7" swing Mini Lathe on Ebay a few years ago. Use it often to make little bits and bobs.
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Depends on space and budget. Which one is the limiting factor?
Steer clear of cheap Chinese made stuff (this includes the likes of Clarke, Draper, Sealey, Warco etc). A good, used English made machine (from the good old days!) will be far more use than any of them. Make sure the lathe you get works on 240v - larger ones often require 3-phase electrics (unless you happen to have 3-phase in your workshop...)
If space and budget are available, something like a lower end Boxford, or a Harrison would be a very good machine (they're big and heavy, but that's good in a lathe!)
At the smaller end, Myford are the go-to choice of folks with enough cash to spare. They're not cheap, but they are reasonably accurate and rigid. They also have the best aftermarket support (try buying spare changegears for anything else!). ML7's are mysteriously well regarded, but the design is from the 1930's. The design was updated in the 50's, and relaunched as the 'Super 7', and it has changed very little since then. It uses drip oilers for the bearings (regular ball bearings), they need to be topped up etc etc. Their later ML10 model is a bit smaller, but still OK for most jobs, and has taper roller bearings which use grease instead of oil, and needs far less maintenance.
Screwcutting is a good feature to have on a lathe, most will be capable, but some smaller ones might not. Back gear (another name for a really low gearing to enable low speeds with high torque) is really handy. All lathes should come with (as a minimum): A 3 jaw chuck, a 4 jaw chuck, a faceplate, chuck key, a carton of oil for the bed (if not, what were they oiling the bed with???), a set of changegears, some lathe tool bits, and the electrics should have an emergency stop button (not always the case on older lathes).
Whatever machine you get, you should have a go on it before purchase. Listen for dodgy bearings (in the headstock, tailstock and motor), check the bed has no tight spots (move the saddle along the entire length of the bed - it should have a nice even resistance along the whole length). Check for play in the tool mount - best way to do this is to take a light cut in something hard, like steel. If you see/feel the tool post flexing as the tool bit contacts metal, that's not good. Also check for free play when you move the tool - the gear drives will have a little bit of slack, but it shouldn't be much. The more slack there is, the more the machine will frustrate you as you try to do anything with precision.
Last thing I can think of - most machines will be imperial, which for anyone below retirement age tends to be a pain. If you're comfortable in an imperial world, feel free. Otherwise, it helps if you can find a metric machine (it'll REALLY help with screwcutting).
Once you get the lathe, grab yourself a load of aluminium alloy off cuts to practice on, and (it should go without saying really) for god's sake wear safety glasses. They're a pain, but I'd have lost both eyes at least 3 times by now if I hadn't been wearing them. Oh, and make sure you have good lighting in your work area!
Milling machines are a whole different ball game, although the same applies re the Chinese stuff. At the lower end of the market, milling machines tend to be small and bendy - not what you want really. They get expensive very quickly, so my answer was to get a vertical slide for the lathe, which effectively turns your lathe into a horizontally mounted milling machine. You're a bit limited in movement - maybe 80mmx60 or thereabouts, but it allows many jobs to be done.
Of course, once you have decided and purchased, do get back to us with pictures so we can all drool over your new toy.
Steve
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Steve,
Thanks for the reply and the advice.
Space- Double garage that's not wasted on cars, so within reason most stuff will fit. Budget- probably easiest to list the sort of things I've been considering...
I did look at Warco, as even though they are Chinese made some people say they are OK, WM290V Lathe / GH18 mill
As it works fairly well on the K, I'm also thinking of going the weird german engineering route with a Wabeco D2400 / F1200
There's also the various S/H Olde English stuff like the ML7s and others you mention. Although I can see the value for money and quality in that approach, the downsides are that I don't really know enough to tell a good one from a bad one and the logistics of transporting upwards of a ton of cast iron. I've got a 2 ton floor crane for positioning it in the garage, but that doesn't help getting it loaded at the other end.
I don't think I want CNC, though maybe a DRO would be useful.
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Living in the UK you have access to plenty of good machinery from there and Europe. I spent some time collecting tools for my retirement. I find that when you have the tool all of a sudden you realize "I can make that now". It will grow from that. First tool I bought was a wire feed welder. This changed much. Then I bought an EMCO lathe, a small but very accurate machine made in Austria. I added digital read out to it for production work when I make a lot of one item. There is even a club for them based over there somewhere on Google. Here is a short video of that machine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4WjZuNRsLA
I also bought its partner a F3 vertical milling machine. It also had digital location read out which is a really good thing. Turns out this is rather rare. A fine machine but only 1 HP. Good for small work or going slow and mine was ordered with no power feed unit. Rats, I have not been able to find one. I use it for all my aluminum work and light steel work. I also have a Hendey 15x54 heavy duty lathe. Weighs 7500lbs and was made in 1947. This machine has threading capabilities that are at the top of the line. It is 10 hp but the shop that rebuilt the electric motor for me says it is really closer to 15 .Many were shipped to the UK during WW2. I bought a 220 volt rotary converter to create 3 phase power. But the way to go these days are the use of Variable Frequency Drive units. They are relatively cheap and solve many problems. I also have a Abene mill from Sweden. It is both a horizontal and vertical machine, spindle is 6 hp and the feed is 2 hp. A very cool machine. This does all my heavy work. I have tooling for cylinder head clean up and make various "stuff" with it. My best friend in the shop is a 25" Cincinnati Bickford 21" Super Survice drill press. It is very ridge and can drill holes up to 1.75" in steel with out even breathing hard. Automatic feed. I use it for most all my drill work because of its stability and other qualities. I installed some modernSquare D electronics for motor control as the original was gone and the second set of controls someone put on it was from the 50's and was un reliable.
I used to make wheel balance machines, about 15 every winter, but the Chinese make a good one for 50$ so I quit. I still make various BMW tools such as rear wheel balance adapters and suspension lift plates for K bikes. But it is the odd seal installer, bar end weights for that special mirror, fix stuff for friends that I like. Last job in the shop was rebuilding a coffee bagging machine that was worn out, new bushings for a small sawmill, boat shafting bushings, stuff that a large shop charges 80$ an hour I do for much cheaper. I don't like doing one off complicated work for others because it gets to the point where there are so many hours in it that I can not charge a fair price. I have to do it just to keep busy. The luggage rack for my S bike required the use of the lock works from the original seat which I did not want to remove. An hour or so on the machines and a suitable mechanical lock was fabricated that took a coin to operate. That sort of thing you just can't go buy. So be careful where you start, it grows. The machine is not too expensive, the tooling is important and adds to the cost so be sure to collect as much of it as you can when you buy the machine. You will need a good grinder for tool sharpening. Youtube is your friend.
I love my hobby. As you indicated you love tools, owning some of these machines is like having art on the wall. I have a small shaper that is good for making internal key ways, but the milling machines do most of the rest of the things shapers were used for.
Start your collection with a good small lathe. As mentioned don't go cheap. The end quality of the work and other problems will drive you nuts. Learn how to set your machines up. Buy some books, look some on line but all the how too machine books, some good ones out there, will really help you to learn quality working skills and of course be safe, fingers fly and it is all too easy to get sucked in and spit out badly hurt.
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I got dragged into a discussion between a newbie machinist and an old hand along similar lines to your comments.
After much advice and questioning the newbie (who was retired, so not a fresh-faced kid) finally admitted he would probably end up using the machines he was lusting after to 'turn useful pieces of material into useless piles of swarf'.
I think that beautifully sums up my attitude to anything bigger than a small pillar drill 8)
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I think that beautifully sums up my attitude to anything bigger than a small pillar drill 8)
Me and Matt both have small pillock drills.
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I have it on good authority that pillocks are very hard to drill, on account of them not wanting to stand still for long enough.
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I have it on good authority that pillocks are very hard to drill, on account of them not wanting to stand still for long enough.
That, and they're very dense.
Anyway, back to the real discussion. Sorry for the thread hijack. :-X
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No yer not 8)
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I struggle for space to keep my vehicles and would certainly not have room for a machine workshop. And to do it proper one would of course require three phase.
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I was talking to a neighbor the other day, while helping him remove a wheel from his car that had a flat tyre and really tight wheel bolts thanks to KwikFit. He's now working at a place that makes bits for F1 cars and they have some really interesting machine tools including some 5 axis CNC stuff and a 3d printer that prints in metal. They use it for custom made titanium manifolds apparently. Anyone have an stl file for an Akra?
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Turning 18x4" studs, nuts on each end to bring up two flanges. These were fitted bolts for a rudder to rudder post, called palm bolts. Scrap once remove. Made 20 fourth of july cannons from them. Not precise machining but fun product. Seems I can't make enough of them. One version or another I have sold over 65 of them in the past few years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYVmdTFBQcE
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I make some BMW useful tools on my machines. One is a rear wheel adapter for the 5 bolt rear wheels so you can balance them. Mine is heavy duty. Yesterday I had a guy over for new tires on his 80's Honda Interceptor. He also needed wheel valves. He pre ordered some but they were 14mm and the rim holes about 11mm. BMW 15mm valves fit into a 14mm hole in the rim. I worried. Went down to the local honda shop and asked the parts manager if I could use the larger as I was really not wanting to, I have seen thinner diameter valves in the past for this. He said yes, they just lube them up and pull them in. I went for it and worked out fine. Learned a good lesson. So today I took one of my rear wheel adapter tools for BMW 5 bolt wheels and gave it to him as thanks. He was shocked (he was watching me with suspicion as I walked in thinking here comes trouble). He was shocked for the gift as I told him that his location on a local major highway might induce troubled bmw riders to stop in for emergency repairs. With this tool he could do tire changes and offer the proper balance job. Got the big introduction to the dealer general manager. He talked to me a while and offered me a job in the shop. Most of the shops are short techs, don't pay enough the last few years. Sorry, I've turned that down a couple of times. My own shop keeps me busy enough. He might want me to show up at 0900 every day! But it was an ego boost. So, some of these tools do make good stuff. I like to use a diamond lathe tool to finish nice aluminum tools. Cold bluing for steel tool finish.
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I applaud your kindness. Well done 8)
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If your thinking about adding a lathe to your shop here is some advice from an old serious Machinist Forest Addy. One of the best I've run into and there are many others out there I'm sure. I consider myself a hobby machinist of average ability, not a Machinist in way shape or form. Hope this helps someone.
Leveling an engine lathe by Forrest Addy:
Run the tailstock to the far end to get it out of the way.
Level across just in front of the headstock using the spindle end jacking screws.
Level the near and far way using the tailstock end leveling crews.
Check along the flat ways at the headstock and tail stock. You probably find some hump in the bedways at this point because the change gear end of the headstock is unsupported.
Lay the level along the near (operator side) way and slowly adjust the near change gear end leveling screw up until you get first movement on the level. Move the level to the far side and repeat with far side.
Start over, refining the leveling this time snugging the locknuts. It's quite possible you'll have a jacking bolt with no weight on it. If the floor is stout (5" or thicker) and intact drill for hold-down bolts working the bolt against the jack screws. You may find your body weight is affecting the leveling. This may indicate the subsoil has subsided under the concrete. If this is a problem talk to a concrete contractor about slab jacking.
Now to tune up the spindle. For that you need a precision ground test bar unless you’re resourceful. I hate the factory test bars. They're always limber and crooked.
I prefer a home made mandrel in a process I’ve come to call the “two collar method.†You need nothing more than a piece of pipe to accomplish the same test as a $500 test bar. Chuck a piece of Sch 40 pipe about a foot long that will just clear the cross slide. Using HSS and light cuts, turn a couple of short diameters about 1/4" long - one next to the jaws and the other at the far end. Relieve the pipe between the diameters. The pipe is sure to chatter; plunk a piece of plywood against the end of the pipe so it stays there with the center's thrust into the raw wood. This will damp out the ring and chatter without influencing the final straightness of the pipe.
Finish the diameters to the same size within 0.0005†and give them a light polish so the indicator doesn’t snag...Don’t sweat making a perfect cut at the same tool setting. Cut them separately if need be. Check them with a mike and a dial indicator. Find the average point of both diameters (there's always a trifling amount of run-out when machining pipe) and mark them. These average points are used when checking for spindle parallelism with the carriage motion.
Mount an indicator on the carriage so it registers the diameter in the vertical plane. Traverse the carriage along the ways. Adjust the change gear end to bring the spindle axis parallel with the ways in the vertical plane. Spot chaeck for level as you go.
Repeat moving the indicator and differentially adjust the jacks to bring the diameters into parallel in the horizontal plane. A second indicator on the vertical plane will allow you to adjust for the horizontal plane without disturbing the vertical. You may need a helper because this is the point where alignment becomes complicated. Some headstocks on the better lathes are set for parallelism by precision scraping their fits on the bedways. Others have a means of angular adjustment. This can take many forms from opposing jacking screws, to a pulling bolt and a pushing setscrew accessed from the same side. You will have to look if you don’t have the original installation manual
OK assuming the headstock is in alignment, the next step is the tailstock. A precision ground bar between centers is nice if you happen to have a precision ground bar.
When setting up and leveling a used lathe, sooner or later I conduct a short survey the tailstock’s condition answering to my self the following questions: Is the quill a snug fit in its housing bore? Does the tailstock base fit flat on the bed so I can’t get a 0.001: feeler under it anywhere. Dies an indicator scanned along the fully extended quill shows its axis to be parallel to the carriage motion to 0.0005†per ft.? Is the internal taper clean, smooth, unscored etc?
If OK I turn a slug gripped in the chuck to the tailstock quill’s diameter. Then I move the tailstock to an unworn portion of the bedways and extend the quill. Setting an indicator zero on top of the slug in the chuck I then crank the carriage to the tailstock and check the top of the extended quill. In a new lathe the indicator will register zero to +0.001 with the quill rising. A worn lathe may have a tailstock whose base is 0.20 low and shaped like the runners of a rocking chair. A re-scrape to correct fit and a shim to raise the tailstock quill to the spindle axis is a regular task when re-commissioning an older lathe. . .
Leveling and aligning a lathe is not a 1-2-3 operation. You'll have to go over the machine several times to bring it in level and then in alignment converging eventually on the best results the machine’s condition will allow. If the machine has significant wear you'll most likely have to compromise. .
Finally, a worn lathe with significant hollow in the ways and rocking chair on the saddle may not be capable of alignment to turn straight diameters over 6 inches long. There is no golden cure, no trick of alignment or leveling, no special techniques that will eliminate the effect of wear. You can work around wear with skill and technique but it will always be present interfering with efficient and often competitive operation to some extent.