Author Topic: The Wonderful Clutch.......l  (Read 21202 times)

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Offline TomL

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2019, 10:52:27 pm »
Thought i'd put this on just to show the condition of all the other friction plates.
As you can see it looks fine as do all the rest.

On my friction plates, the friction segments were half the size of your earlier plates with at least twice as many segments.
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Offline Martin-k12

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2019, 07:31:58 pm »
Well went to fit my clutch today and the shitty TRW plates don't fit...... so that crap is going back.....
So now need a new set recommendations welcome....
Or if anyone has an old set of genuine ones kicking about in the garage, where only one plate is shagged the might be willing to post. :-*

Offline Phmode

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2019, 08:41:18 pm »
Most folks swear by, as opposed to at, Barnett.

Offline TomL

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2019, 10:32:44 pm »
Well went to fit my clutch today and the shitty TRW plates don't fit...... so that crap is going back.....
So now need a new set recommendations welcome....
Or if anyone has an old set of genuine ones kicking about in the garage, where only one plate is shagged the might be willing to post. :-*
Are you sure that you alligned the dogs on the clutch with the correct slots in the basket? Have you got them the right way round?
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Offline Martin-k12

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2019, 01:58:53 pm »
Hey toml
Yeah I tried every dog on three plates individually not one would fit. >:(. They didn't have a narrow dog never ming the
Thats what I get for trying to save a couple of quid.

As I said before I'm hoping to find a used set in the same condition as mine that I can pinch one plate from.... Failing the I think I will get a set from John Sykes www.vibefreev.com. Double the money but come with an anti judder spring to fit the k12's.


Offline stevel

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2019, 06:31:52 pm »
Hi Martin,

Some nice machining on the drain slots there - I'm guessing it was done on a mill?

Couple of other questions whilst I'm here:

What was the original problem that you were fixing when you found all this?
How old is your clutch?
Which plate is it you're looking to replace? I ask because often it's the first plate that needs replacing, but there were several different versions of it (there's the full size one, the half size one with a spacer on the inside, and a half size one with a conical spring to help separation).

Cheers,

Steve


Offline Martin-k12

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2019, 06:56:38 pm »
hey Stevel,

Yeah done on a mill, machinist by trade and manage a small machine shop so I can use it as i please.

The original problem was judder and unreliable bite point sponge one min sharp the next.
24000 miles
With mine being one of the first all the plates are identical no half one. What I'm hoping is , is that someone has changed there clutch plates same fault as me and kept them thus they should like me have 6 good frictions.... long shot I know but here's hoping.

Offline stevel

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2019, 10:14:51 pm »
Ok...

Your original problems are most likely caused by damage to the splines on the output hub (not sure what to call this part - it's the large aluminium casting in the inner part of the clutch, that gets driven by the clutch steel plates and transmits drive to the gearbox). If you look at the splines on yours, they're quite notched. This leads to the clutch steel plates being less willing to separate - some will, some won't, which is what gives the inconsistency in it's behaviour. They are the biggest problem you'll have. If you have an engineering solution to this problem, I'd like to hear about it (I'm on the quest for the perfect clutch!!!). I've spent a long time on mine polishing out the notches with a Dremel (it takes hours!!!) - ideally I'd have had the splines very lightly skimmed, but I'm not sure such a delicate operation is possible without removing too much material. I certainly can't do it as I only have a lathe. Even better would be getting a new one made out of something slightly harder than the mozzarella that BMW used.

Next question - have you upgraded the clutch basket bearing to the better spec one? Well worthwhile upgrade, made my bike as smooth as a turbine.

Do you have the thrust bearing with the 72mm pin (which helps oiling)?


Clutch plates wise, I'd suggest the Barnett pack. They have wider dogs on the plates to help with the wear on the metal bits, and most folks seem happy. There's a set on ebay at the moment for £130 or best offer - I'd bet he's not had many offers...


Offline Martin-k12

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2019, 12:33:11 pm »
Yo,

That makes sense... will give the outer basket a going over tonight to check for grooving from the plates.......as for a repair....  I'd machine out the slots over size then produce inserts from a harder steel maybe even a nitrided steel which I could then fit in.
The bearing I was tempted to do but could find a lot of information on it and to be honest just couldn't be assed.... ::)

Yeah I've got the replacement 72mm pin need to get it ground down a little though to fit the hole on my bike...(keep forgetting to bring it in to work).
Was also toying with the idea of putting another slot in it but my understanding is the k12's have a 4.5bar and the k13's a 5.5bar oil pump so a little worried about making the oil pressure drop to low?

Offline Costas

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2019, 03:54:14 pm »
TRW claims they fit, the answer is yes in the first and second generation baskets they do, but who can find a bike with the old gear box fm 2005 and early 2006? are they still in the roads in the initial gear box and basket?
Only Barnett fits . I know this info should be given some time ago,  sorry folks .
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Offline stevel

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2019, 04:10:33 pm »
Not the outer basket - it's the inner one that's the problem. The outer basket is already made of something fairly hard - you'll see marks in the coating where the clutch plate dogs hit it, but no real depth to them. It's the other side - the bit in the middle of the clutch that the steel plates mate up with - the steels are hard, and that bit is soft aluminium alloy - that's where the notches are. Have a look at your original post on this thread - the 3rd photo, in the top right corner - you can see the notches there. If you can find a way to fit something harder in their place, it's worth doing (and maybe offering a service to other K12/13 owners - there's a fortune to be made in dodgy clutches out there!).

On the 72mm pin, I wouldn't bother doing any more work to it. We don't need masses of oil on this clutch, just a little bit (think about the drain holes you machined -they wouldn't be needed if there weren't already enough oil getting in there). Plus, that way you don't have to worry about not having the uprated oil pump (it's actually just the same pump - BMW simply changed the drive sprockets from a 25:25 ratio to a 26:24 ratio to make it run faster!)

The uprated bearing is definitely worth doing - best improvement I made on my clutch. I found one for £15, but that was quite some time ago - the same place now charges £31! If you want one, the item to look for is: INA NK35/30-TV-XL Needle Roller Bearing (make sure it's made by INA, and make sure it's the XL version - higher load bearing = longer life!). It's a 2 minute job to knock the old one out and this one in - it's not much of an interference fit.

Offline Martin-k12

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2019, 07:20:09 pm »
Had a check and strangely enough my "hub" is fine very very light deformation but the outer basket is probably .1-.15mm deep. the ripples are pretty ridiculous in comparison to the inner......

As for repairing it there is a Machine that would reface these slots easily...I just don't have one and cant remember the bloody name of it, it works on a reciprocating principle and is commonly used for Keyways.
As for prevention the other possibility is maybe getting the baskets/hubs themselves treated but I'm not right up on the metallurgy of ally.

I won't bother with the extra groove I'll just get it ground to fit. And I must say I assumed that would be the case with the pump, seems to be a running theme with BMW and this bike .... Why fix properly that which you can bodge and it might do the job!

And cheers I will take your advice on the bearing I will get one ordered and pull the Basket will give me a chance for a better examination anyway.

Offline Martin-k12

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2019, 07:29:55 pm »
Just done a quick google its actually called a slotting machine.... go figure. :-[

And a quick last thing someone mentioned about putting a 3mm pin in the gear that engages the basket gear is that right there is a hole there strangely.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 07:39:44 pm by Martin-k12 »

Offline Sutty

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2019, 02:08:16 pm »
You're right Martin, it is called a slotting machine, I have an attachment for my miller. It's usually used for keyways  but I've done internal splines as well. The stroke is only about 60mm though.

Regards.  Mick
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Offline TomL

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Re: The Wonderful Clutch.......l
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2019, 04:34:41 pm »
Just done a quick google its actually called a slotting machine.... go figure. :-[

And a quick last thing someone mentioned about putting a 3mm pin in the gear that engages the basket gear is that right there is a hole there strangely.
Could also be a shaping machine.
As I have grown older, I've learned that pleasing everybody is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.