EuroKClub
General forum area => K1200 / K1300 Forum => Topic started by: chriscanning on April 22, 2021, 04:25:07 pm
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Rather than a long ramble the old K decided it eat it’s gearbox today...riding two up from Shobdon airfield back to north B’ham including going via Kidderminster with it stuck in 6 gear...having already eaten 5th was an experience i’ll Not be forgetting in a while....
Preliminary phone calls around the motorcycle trade both BM and otherwise....we’re not good, looks like the old K may well be heading for the bin....thank heavens for multiple bike ownership...so currently will be pushed to the back of th garage until a solution or scrap man appears ;D
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Sorry to hear this.
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Ouch. Sorry to hear that.
Mind you, that's a definitive tick in the box for the XR versus the K1200: didn't spit gearbox - tick.
So is it scrap in effect, or maybe a replacement engine?
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Oh s1h1t! Hope it’s an easy fix, too good a bike to scrap. :-\
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In no particular order...
The ride home in 6th kin’ll what a experience that was...
Phone up Motorworks and ask about a gearbox...and get a very blunt ‘Stopped selling a lot of K parts too much hassle’
Phone an independent didn’t want to know...
A lot of home work to be done before I/we come up with a plan but hey ho it was going quite well till it went pop.
Lucky for me..my other half likes old things :) were as my gut says scrap it, there’s a challenge to be had...fixing it so who knows ;D
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https://www.gumtree.com/p/bmw-motorbikes/bmw-k1200r-/1402897950
Cheaper than an engine in the long run?
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Thanks for the heads up, in all honesty the logical thing is to scrap it...the bikes probably worth more in bits than even if it was running, digging into the net blimey :o :o :o, but all sorts of options including pushing it to the back of the garage and forgetting about it...as I said in the other post the problem I have the wife actually likes it... ;D ;D ;D,
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Thanks for the heads up, in all honesty the logical thing is to scrap it...the bikes probably worth more in bits than even if it was running, digging into the net blimey :o :o :o, but all sorts of options including pushing it to the back of the garage and forgetting about it...as I said in the other post the problem I have the wife actually likes it... ;D ;D ;D,
Buy your mate's 1300 version! At mates rates of course.
Same ergonomics, younger better engine. No brainer.
Oh, it's gone... >:(
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Oh dear me. That is not good news at all. Whatever you do, hope you get something sorted that makes you both happy.
You could buy a low mileage one and transfer the goodies over to it and that would tick boxes.
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So sorry to hear about that :( Breaking the bike is probably the best solution with the help of ebay and this forum, But you would need a lot of time to dismantle the bike and you would be left with a ton of parts ;D The rebuild route would cost a lot of money. See if you can locate a tatty one with a good engine and rebuild a good one and try and flog the rest. Its a very difficult decision depending on how much you like the bike. before the gearbox went, how many miles had the bike done? Another factor is that the K bikes are becoming rare, especially the 1200s. You could strip it down and see how bad it is....
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Double ouch Chris!
One assumes you tried Motorworks. They live off OLD BMW's...
If it is still driving (and I assume it is, otherwise you were tryping this on the hard shoulder of the M6) it can only be a matter of a couple of cogs that need swapping out/in. Even at dealer prices for the bits that can't cost too much. And if the wife likes it, get her to buy the cogs for your birthday :)
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I'll 3d print some cogs! PLA is fine yeah? Otherwise I'm sure some of us are decent at woodwork.
When I read "cassette gearbox" I want to believe it just pops out and you pop a new one in!
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Sorry to hear that Chris, I hope you find a way to keep it on the road.
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Had exactly the same issue with my k1200 about 7 years ago. Problem is that the dogs don't engage properly, due to a poorly machined selector drum, so you end up with bent selector forks as they jump out of gear.On the positive side, it's a really easy job to replace the box as it's a cassette gearbox, preferably with a k1300 box and clutch
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Being a born pessimist...been expecting it for years but has still come as a shock..biggest pain is with it being stuck in 6th can’t even move the dam thing without clutching it...
Despite owning the bike for 12 years and being aware of gearbox gremlins....blimey when you start looking it’s quite a horror story...in short it needs a 1300 gear cassette...that’s the easy bit, ideally looks like to keep life simple also a 1300 clutch pack and a few other bits and bobs behind it.
The above is the good news...so in view of the clutch pack being needed and the bits and bobs, looks like currently and I say currently...because all things are possible the easy solution to buy a 1300 motor and take what I need out of it, which looking at prices is around 2k, am I good enough to fit it!!! Possibly but with 6 bikes in the garage short of room.
When phoning around you would think I was asking if they could do open heart surgery ;D, but if I go the above route I have a mate close by with a work shop who could probably do it, so currently as there’s no rush to fix it and even less inclination, I used to be undecided but now i’m Not so sure :)
Just for those thinking blimey hope it doesn’t happen to me, most of what I read about it’s just a shit 1200 design, but my gut instinct with mine...it’s the aftermarket QS that although it worked really well, but with the gears not being undercut, just said i’ve Had enough.
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I think that the main problem would be cleaning all the pieces of swarf out of the engine. Would the swarf have already travelled to the grankshaft bearings? Would have to be a total stripdown.
Time for an engine and gearbox transplant. Bad luck Chris. Hope you get it sorted one way or another.
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Unless a donor bike can be sourced VERY cheaply, the transplant option makes no sense to me. Even more so if the donor bike being looked for is a 1300. The improvements on the 1300 were a lod more than a few extra CCs, Given the work involved I'd definitely be looking at finding a K1300R then using the 1200 to be the donor bike for any of the customised bits that you'r really attached to, scrapping the rest of the 1200. It'll likely be less work, no more expensive, leave a bike that's better over all and will still worth something.
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Except you still get the 12 gearbox which Chris is saying is a suspect design. One wonders what it would run like if it was just a 1300 engine and box plumbed in with no ECU changes etc.
As to Tom's comments about the swarf, if it is merely the shift levers that have bent then there won't be any. Did it actually explode with lots of whirly bits going graunch Chris, or just get stuck in gear?
And yes, being a cassette box means that it all just pops out as one unit rather than having to strip it all in situ which would mean an engine strip.
Anyone else done it?
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Sorry Brian, but if the first para of your post is a response to mine it makes no sense. I'm suggesting scrapping the 12 and getting a 13, gearbox included.
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There was some initial graunching, but stopped that with a double clicking from 4th to 6th, after the stop at Shobdon, first time I took it to sixth it stuck that way and hasn’t moved since, biggest pain is having to clutch it to even move it in the garage.
Re a solution...too be honest their are quite a few ranging from scrapping it to heaven forbid fit a 1300 motor and the hassle with the software, as I said in the other post...it’s only when you go searching for video’s etc about such..the amount of great info is astonishing.
Currently the front runner is a 1300 gearbox and clutch, how one acquires such...now that could be interesting, but at the same time if I get a phone call saying how much for the bike as is could be another complication...because the immediate answer wouldn’t be yes i’ll Sell it...just something else to think about.
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Sorry Brian, but if the first para of your post is a response to mine it makes no sense. I'm suggesting scrapping the 12 and getting a 13, gearbox included.
Ah, I thought you were suggesting getting a 13 for the gearbox and doing a transplant.
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Woo boo after much huffing and puffing finally got the box into neutral..at least I can move the dam thing without the clutch, and shows all the signs as per the YouTube vids of being selectors.
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Time to remove the gearbox and take a look.
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Thank heavens for all the individuals who take the time to post YouTube vids which has been most enlightening, even those that show the problem without the solution, and as bizarre as it sounds already had to threaten the individual who’ll strip it ;D...that I expect to pay as a punter, cuz I know he’ll want to do it for peanuts.
Anyone got a link to priming the gearbox oil pump... :) cuz that looks currently to be the only missing link.
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It explains how to do it on the Reprom 11 41 000.
Looks like you need to pressurise the oil tank and crank the engine on the starter without it starting.
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Blimey! How do you prevent it from starting?
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When i’ve worked out if the 1300 oil pump is a must and sourced a motor, will give priming the pump a tad more thought or my mate but thanks Tom and I do have the eprom...all of which doesn’t close currently compared to the 4 blokes I have at the house sorting the roof out. :o :o
How the hell I ever found time to go to work...i’ve Absolutely no idea!!!!!!!
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Please don't forget to take a few photos as you get it apart, for the next unfortunate soul that may need them.
Cheers!
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And put a leek at the bottom of the replacement, for good luck. Or is it an onion. I think my grandad used an onion.
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Blimey! How do you prevent it from starting?
You have to connect up to the diagnostics and carry out a crankshaft sensor test. This will crank the engine without starting it. I presume this can also be done with a GS911.
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1200 gear boxes have started to give up in all over Europe up to today the rate is one every 100 bikes at the 14 year of ownership. Its the reason scrap yards are recovering and storing the boxes for those in love with the bike and willing to fix the issue. In Greece we have a technician that deals with fragrance [fragile!] machines that is reconstructing the box for 400€. In two bikes the fix has lasted more than 20000 km and still goes on. .
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Had no sense of smell for years...so sniffing my gearbox isn’t on my priority list ;D
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You should have listened to your mum when she told you to stop picking your nose...
Mine went years ago and I didn't listen either :)
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I’m into lots of things but sniffing gearbox’s isn’t on e’m or sniffing anything else for that matter....well not at my age :)
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Read this with interest, in 1989 I was sold a Honda VF750 Californian import , I knew they had a cam problem and the seller, (Birmingham motorcycles) told me it didn’t affect U S bikes and promised to refund me if the cam failed.
Well the cam was ok, but the gearbox wasn’t, it would jump out of second under hard acceleration, the cause was crap selector forks so I made some beefed up ones. It was as good as gold after that, they even gave me what I paid for it when I traded it in 18 months later.
Hope you get it sorted.
Best regards. Mick
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Not sure which is which is currently worse coming up with a gearbox plan or sorting the new computer we’ve just had grrrrrr, actually thinking about it sorting the gearbox out is going to be the easier option :), has a very nice clutch basket holder turn up in the post.
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Not sure which is which is currently worse coming up with a gearbox plan or sorting the new computer we’ve just had grrrrrr, actually thinking about it sorting the gearbox out is going to be the easier option :), has a very nice clutch basket holder turn up in the post.
Ha! I'm exactly the opposite. I might just about recognise a clutch basket, but not a holder - and even less idea of what do with it.
A computer, on the other hand... ;)
Good luck! Take photos.
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We have gone to a new computer and windows 10, posting photos used to be a few seconds job...currently pulling the gearbox blindfolded seems a far easier option.
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Windows 10 is the devil's spawn. Anything more likely to drive folk away from Microsoft in their droves has yet to be invented...
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You are not kidding >:(
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And that's why I'm on Win 8.1.
Win 10 also does a sh*tload of tracking your actions, searches, etc.
You can block it, but boy do they make you work to find all the settings.
Here's how, should you want a rest from the gearbox:
https://nordvpn.com/blog/disable-windows-10-tracking/
But yes - you're right, I'm wrong. Gearbox first! ;D
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Me: does a crap load of things to stop win 10 restarting itself
Pc: "look over there!" *restarts*
Me: does even more stuff to stop it patching and restarting
Pc: "hold my pint" *restarts*
And now I have a 'subscription' to Office so I get forced patches that will occasionally inevitably mess something up and have to keep paying.
(I'll add until I needed to work on my cv I was using Google apps)
Bahh. I bet clutch baskets don't auto restart or track your dirigible search history.
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A couple of years ago I bought a well-used, ruggedised, Panasonic Toughbook running Windows XP...
Blimey, what a trip down memory lane that was. But, it has REAL serial ports (which some of my telescope stuff insists on ((and yes I know you can get converters, but most are shite)) ), is indestructible this side of a nuclear blast (which is important when I keep tripping over it in the dark) and with XP installed it doesn't take over my life or do stupid stuff when I ignore it for a week.
I remember all the guff about having to press the Start button to Stop it and how they all hooted and decried Microsoft for its stupidity. Now they are all driving cars where you have to press the Start button to Stop it...
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Yep, I wouldn't mind going a couple versions back! I only went to 10 to enable virtualisation support, ie running containers. Regrets!
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You i the freight business now Matt. Very expensive items this year...
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Got a fancy laptop running windows 10 :adolf:. Prefer using my clunky old desktop running windows 7, I'll cry the day that finally dies.
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https://i.ibb.co/T1YPX5B/2021-05-02-18-05-38.jpg
There was a day when it took 15 seconds and you could actually see the effing photo....
(https://i.ibb.co/T1YPX5B/2021-05-02-18-05-38.jpg)
Hooray...windows 10 that's with a small w you can stick it where the sun don't shine...
All I have to do now if find a nice 1300 motor :D
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Good work on the photo front, Chris!
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Off to buy an engine tomorrow...which could be fun...and that’s just picking up...
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Interesting to see when in this state.
(https://i.ibb.co/71bjNxf/2021-05-06-16-08-57.jpg)
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Looks good Chris...
I love it when someone gets all gooey eyed about their recently blown up bike :)
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Look at it! All smug with most of its paint still on it and not the road!
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It’s done 11000 miles so hopefully will have a nice gearbox, almost a shame to take it apart it’s in as good condition as my 1200 motor(paint wise) which really is saying something so yea a little bit of luck finding it.
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How did you come across it Chris?
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Their were only two options both on eBay, at the risk of pointing the obvious out your looking at an engine and anything could have happened too it, had a chat with the guy on phone which gave me some confidence, very quickly he came up with a price and I said I might see him Thursday....
Roll up yesterday to an outrageously nice part of the world which frankly had more interest than the engine, without asking they showed me a video of the bike running before they broke it, but by which time it was already in the back of the van and off we went looking for cake and coffee :)
What i’ve Found interesting had the bike for 12 years, you don’t go looking for what you don’t need....but blimey there’s some interesting stuff out there about crap K gearbox’s it really does make you wonder how the hell BM got away with it over the years.
As the old K is way down the food chain nowhere days i’m Fairly relaxed about it, but if it was an only bike....blimey :o
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I don't know much about BM's ecu's etc.. but surely if the 1300 is a more developed engine it would be better to throw a complete motor in, especially if it's a good one. Or is it a lot more complex than that.
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as armstrong racer says, mechanically you should be fit to shoehorn it in there. i would think ecu wise would be were the issues are, but a good remap/ecu outfit should be able to sort it out, the problem i suspect would be getting someone interested in it. a lot of outfits "fit" stuff and don't like challenges. time to find someone and "lean" on them if possible.
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All the home work and searching on the net come up with the same problem as what you mentioned, in fairness mine has been on dyno with a PC and runs very well, with the after market wheels and suspension, Akra headers etc, a 1300 is never going to put any distance into mine performance wise, but currently there is a grey area about using the better oil pump in the gearbox, which clearly part of BM’s R+D over the years, but the reality simply put...the 1300 is what BM should have started with in September 04 instead of the heap of junk that BM foisted on the public.
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I have never heard a rational story about 'why' they thought they would get away with it, nor why they did release it to the press as early as they did. Were they trying to beat another bike to the marketplace? What else was released in late '04 to early '05?
And had it not been for the late, great Kevin Ash telling the world and his dog exactly what he thought of it, it might never been recalled. Not that my '04 reg bike ever was...
For those who haven't seen it here is a link...
http://docplayer.net/36017804-Bmw-s-brilliant-engine.html
...to the article in the Ricado Engineering quarterly journal about their development work on the K1200 to produce the K1300. The reader is a bit clunky and you need to scroll down loads to get to the article on the BM. Interesting reading nonetheless.
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I test rode a blue and white one out of Clark’s BMW, remember to this day have the speedo showing 175, but short of anything flat out it ran like a crock of scht, nothing short of an absolute disgrace and when I took it back told e’m so, which I found rather sad because even then it was clear that they hadn’t done their home work.
My 07 sport was errrr short of a few lumps and bumps that had been filed off the bike in all manor of forms, a PC finally sorted the fuelling, non ESA suspension i’m Very happy to say, but clearly needed more R+D but by then BM had missed their chance and the game had moved on and the 1300 was a solution to a bike that wasn’t at the top of the wanted list any more.
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I still don't understand how BMW missed such a trick with the K series. The market is crying out for a proper shaft drive sports tourer with good fuel consumption. My choice came down to K1300 and Honda vf1200f, the range and frankly appalling fuel consumption put me off the Honda, didn't like the riding position either.
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I don’t think is...i’ve Got two bikes that are shaft driven, can’t beat the theory but the reality is..Their great till they go wrong’ compared to 200 quid for brand new chain and sprockets.
As for the bike itself...the game has moved on, bought our first Africa Twin in the mid 80’s and realised the game has moved on, sold that for an new 885 Tiger which frankly was as big a cock up as the early K’s , and as soon as the 955 Tiger came out bought one and still have it to this day and it still holds our long distance e record of a 1050 miles in 16 hours and that included the Dover/Calais ferry crossing.
Bought our BM non ESA X/R in 2016 and with a few bits and bobs added just the best bike we have ever had, and I include the KTMGT we bought in 19 it’s good but not in the same league as the X/R although in fairness the X/R doesn’t have that poxy electric suspension it has Wilber.
So after my waffle...think the game has moved on and passed the sportstourer by some time back.
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More like the demographic has moved on (in age), and the money followed. Hence adventure bikes. A bit like sports tourers but sitting upright with leg room for arthritic hips & knees.
Old folk can't take the sports touring position for more than a couple of hours. And that may include me in the next few years. :-\
Which reminds me - I saw a new fully loaded 1250 GS in Wheel House Tyres today. I want to like them but they are ENORMOUS from the front. Something of the SUV about them. (sorry Matt!)
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They're enormous from the rear too tbh! (flashback to The Italian Job sorry)
I'll add that along with demographic creep, or rather what has made it creep is that new bikes are now financed like cars. And so they cost so much more because ticket price doesn't matter :/. In any case, 1960s: working class transport. 2100s: rich man's toy. We're on that one-way path I believe!
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At least you are going to a good place for tyres..there’s no one better.
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Still considering taking my wheels in to them in the next week or so for new rubber. The current PR4's have done four Wrinklies already and are living on Matt & Richard's string puncture repair from 2018 :)
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Do it! I understand Wales has corners :D
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Double do it. Matt is Welsh, he knows these things.
And I had a puncture (obvs) so fatter tread = less chance of nerg nails.
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Looks like the old tank might be coming to pieces at the end of the week...hopefully with not to many horrors stories...yea right ::)
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(https://i.ibb.co/Qj39RH8/2021-07-23-14-42-54.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/d27D74M/2021-07-23-14-43-33.jpg)
1300 gearbox
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Looks wonderfully clean, Chris!
A cassette gearbox too. I didn't realise that until I had to find out what a gear selector switch was.
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That is the gearbox out of the 1300 engine I bought, thought it would be easier to practice on...in all honesty i’m Not doing it two mates are who I know well.
First eye opener they had was alloy gear selectors which they had never seen before, and the single use engine cover bolts...their alloy as well and weigh absolutely zilch.
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Alloy selectors :o. even steel ones bend.
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All back together been ridden up and down the road so far and that’s it, while the net was useful clearly posted by folks who haven’t done the job themselves, i’ll Hold my hands up now and confess I didn’t do mine either, but as the guys who did it are on our daily dog walk regardless, i’ve Been keep’d fully up to speed as to what what fitted and what didn’t ie the 1300 gearbox fits but the clutch doesn’t because the drive at the back of the clutch basket is different between 1200 and 1300.
The 1200 gearbox is/was actually repairable, the prospect of the 1300 undercut gears for the QS was too much to resist.
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Good result Chris.
The 1200 gearbox is/was actually repairable...
'K1200S engine for sale. Barely run in.' ;)
Seriously, you'll be able to get a reasonable chunk of cash back.
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When the dust settles... ::) it’ll be an 11000 mile K1300 minus the gearbox or a K1200 gearbox needs one gear and a selector, but that’s all in the future...that’s the trouble with these bikes that become part of the family furniture ::)
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ie the 1300 gearbox fits but the clutch doesn’t because the drive at the back of the clutch basket is different between 1200 and 1300.
I think that's what I paid John Sykes the money for ie to make the K13 fit the K12 although exactly what he did is not detailed in his emails
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At the risk of getting technical...the sprocket which is behind the clutch which connects it to the main gear-shaft, not only has a different way of connecting but the 1300 version has an extra tooth, now the chain that goes over that small sprocket also drives the oil pump.
The chain has a tensioner but trying to fit the 1300 version with the extra tooth means the small chain is like a banjo string and that’s before fitting the chain tensioner, hence why my man stuck with the 1200 clutch and why John Sykes must do some kind of mod to fit a 1300 clutch basket, if it all goes pear shaped we’ll see, but after Vines sorted it some years back been more than happy....Famous last words...before i’ve Ridden myself.
Actually bad discribtion the sprocket and chain at the back of the clutch connect to the oil pump
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As an engineer I dig holes and fill them with concrete, don't be asking me complicated question about sprockets and chains deep inside the engine 8), go and ask John Sykes because I don't have the knowledge and skill to explain. Whatever he did , and what ever your lads did in their magic shed, at the end of the day it all works. I'm deeply envious of their ability to do this work and glad you and I know men that can.. I'm pleased you have your bike back, enjoy, and hope you can do more miles than you are pedalling right now
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Rode the bike back home, which is no distance at all but very apparent that the 1300 gearbox with the aftermarket QS I have on the bike makes a noticeable difference, would prefer a lot less rain clouds currently circulating so the big try out will have to wait.
Re John Sykes..had an interesting conversation with the lads today, while his video is straight forward the bit you are paying for doesn’t for obvious get mentioned and who can blame him.