EuroKClub
General forum area => K1200 / K1300 Forum => Topic started by: stevel on June 25, 2021, 05:43:39 pm
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Hi everyone!
My K13S came out of hibernation last week.
I'd drained the tank before putting it away (in 2019!) as much as I could.
Got it out to go to MOT last week - replaced the battery, and it fired up just fine. I let it idle for a couple of minutes, rode it up and down the drive a few times, no problem, all feels good. As it had very little fuel, I went straight to the petrol station, and managed to fit in 16L of the high octane stuff (and it's a 19 litre tank, so there was around 3 litres of old fuel in there.
Set off towards the MOT place, but I only got another mile and a half before it lost all power at 60mph, and coasted to a stop. Now, the engine turns over OK, but doesn't fire up.
It was at this stage I discovered my old (10 yrs old!) GS-911 has stopped working.... (new fangled wi-fi one arrives tomorrow!) Until it arrives, I'm stuck with guessing and trying to work out logically what's happened. So far, I've replaced the fuel pump, and tested it. I've tried bypassing the fuel pump controller too - still doesn't start. I've taken an air filter off and sprayed carb cleaner in whilst cranking the engine over - it did fire up temporarily, so I think I've narrowed this down to a fuel problem.
I was thinking it might be crud from the tank blocking up the injectors, but I think that would cause 1 or 2 cylinders to misfire - what I got was a complete lack of power, rather than rough running, so it's something that has affected all 4 cylinders at once.
Any ideas, anyone?
Cheers
Steve
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don't know about over there but it's too easy to get a fill of bad fuel over here....
maybe drain tank again and refill from different fuel source.
not very high tech but i have went the length of tasting fuel.. smelt like petrol, tasted like water.
it seems bike was ok until it got a taste of the new fuel...
if thats the problem you will have to crank the engine a little while to introduce the fresh petrol.
just my thoughts.
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Bad fuel?
Firstly, go back to the filling station and ask if anyone else has reported problems. A mate had a similar experience in Belgium but managed to stagger back to UK. The filling station admitted there had been lots of very expensive Porsches and big Merc's stranded so not an insignificant bill for all the repairs.
Next, drain the tank and stick a litre of good stuff in from somewhere else.
Neither costs money in the medium term. Certainly cheaper than a new GS-911 :)
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Without a GS all we can do is guess, but with 6 bikes on the go and there’s at least one or two at the back of the garage unloved, never let any of them stand with less than half a tank of fuel in, and the other thing you didn’t mention was storage...we are currently thinking about moving house and the first question central heating in the garage?? Damp garages are notorious particularly the amount of time you mention, probably nothing to do with problem but hey how, as for Spraying carb cleaner i’d Try the same with fuel.
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A second recharge of the battery (and leaving the first attempted starts to evaporate overnight) brought mine around, but I can't say that was anything intelligent on my part - just luck. And an open throttle on starting seemed to encourage it, even though I'm sure that just messes up the mix. But when you're desperate...
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Thanks guys.
I did try the fresh petrol theory, but that didn't do the trick. However... I'm now wondering how long it would take for the fresh fuel to get to the injectors - all the bad fuel needs to get out the way first...
My bike ran for about a mile and a half after filling up. I normally get about 150 miles, and it's around 15 litres to fill up, so easy maths, it's 1 litre per 10 miles. I went around 1.5miles, so that would mean I used approx 150ml. If it was bad fuel (and that's only a theory at the moment), then now that I've put good fuel in there, I've got to use another 150ml of bad stuff before the good stuff gets there....
That's a lot of cranking it over on the starter. Anyone know of any other way to get the bad fuel out the way? (apart from dismantling the fuel injection system - I've looked into that, and I'm not keen).
Cheers
Steve
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Draining the injector lines is the only way but it is a world of pain if you have never done it before as the whole assembly is hidden behind (in front of) the air inlet stubs to the throttle bodies.
You can try taking the dry-break connector off the pipe from the tank and see if the lines will drain down but there is a fuel pressure regulator between the inlet line and the injectors and heaven knows how that works. i.e. does it have a non-return valve in it?
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You could try some "easy start", brake cleaner, or carb cleaner into the air inlet.
If it doesn't fire then, you will know it isn't a fuel problem.
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He did that already...
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it will take a while to get the good fuel through the system, when the "bad" fuel goes in your tank all the fuel already in the tank is now bad fuel..usually but not exclusively either water or diesel.
as brian says proper way is to drain the whole system, lines,injectors. pump..everything but thats a lot of work... usually you can get away with draining the tank and putting in good fuel and a churning match to get it through the fuel system. run the starter for 10-15 seconds at a time and 3-4 seconds rest between bouts... keeps the starter from over heating. if you do this a few times you could give a small spray of easystart... very small while churning, i'm not a fan of easy start but the engine running will flush the system much more quickly.
there are two schools of thought on how much fresh fuel to use, some fill to the brim to reduce percentage of contaminate in the fuel...that should work but i'd just put in a litre or two, get her running and drain it again and then fill with nice, tasty petrol.
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Suppose I should say this in hushed tones..you are sure it was petrol and not diesel you put in.., regardless of it starting my culprit is the 3L that’s been standing in the tank from 19.
Desperate times need desperate measures...know anyone with a van and bike ram and go and find a steep hill to bump it down.
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I have a very cheap plastic hand pump, the kind you just squeeze and release, it has a long suction tube and it shifts quite a bit. Might save stripping down the injection system.
Good luck.
Regards. Mick
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Isn't there a low pressure return pipe from the fuel pressure regulator ( on the fuel rail ) back to the fuel tank
The way it usually works is the fuel pump runs, pressurises the fuel rail until it reaches the pre-determined pressure of the rail pressure regulator, then excess pressure ( fuel ) is returned to the tank by a low pressure return pipe.
So if you keep operating the fuel pump, the fuel in the rail should gradually get replaced with fresh fuel.
You could remove the return pipe from the tank end & monitor the fuel being returned.
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Forget the above.
I've just checked the Reprom ( which I should have done first ) & although the above system is used in most car injection systems, BMW havn't used it on the K engines. There doesn't seem to be a fuel return line. ::)
On the K they monitor the fuel rail pressure with an electronic pressure sensor & use this data to control the fuel pump pressure.
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Chris Canning wins this one...
I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that it must've been diesel... despite me not wanting to admit such stupidity. The bike is now running, and running well.
GS-911 showed no faults, so I kept cranking (with appropriate breaks to let things cool down). I drained and recharged the battery twice, but in the end it did fire up. Ran rough at first, and slowly cleared up over the next 10 mins or so. LOTS of white smoke out the back (diesel in the exhaust burning up). Now idles purring like a tiger, as it should.
For anyone who manages to do this in the future: the fuel pipe and injector rail holds a lot of fuel - I guess about 150ml (as I managed about 1.5 miles after my fill up). It takes a lot of cranking on the starter to clear that, but I feel it's the best way to clear it. The alternative is to dismantle half the bike to get to the injectors - it's an airbox off job to get to them otherwise. And when you do get the bike running, watch out for diesel in the exhaust catching fire. With hindsight, when it first fired I should have taken the end can off and cleaned the diesel out of the lowest point of the exhaust system. Luckily, my exhaust valve, O2 sensor and cat all seem to have survived intact (this time...).
The big clues on this one were that the bike stopped shortly after a fill up, and that it died completely, and quickly (rather than running rough on a few cylinders and gradually getting worse). Also that there was no petrol smell from the exhaust when cranking the engine.
Many thanks to everyone here - it's really useful to have a knowledgeable sounding board for my random theories!
Steve
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chris mentioned diesel ...feeling unloved here,
ah well good job you got her going, always nice to hear them recover.
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Good that it's now sorted, whatever the problem was. Did you "sniff" what you took out of the tank? Diesel is usually pretty obvious by its smell.
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Y'know, one of the first things I did was to sniff it, and the odd thing was, it DIDN'T smell like diesel! I know full well what diesel and petrol are supposed to smell like (hell, I've been known to sniff petrol simply 'cos I like it), but this stuff was more like paraffin. I'm guessing that's 'cos it was a mix of 3/19ths petrol and 16/19ths diesel? Mind you, it was the high performance diesel... maybe that smells different? In any case, I've now got an interesting mix to throw on the bonfire in 5 odd months time.
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Y'know, one of the first things I did was to sniff it, and the odd thing was, it DIDN'T smell like diesel! I know full well what diesel and petrol are supposed to smell like (hell, I've been known to sniff petrol simply 'cos I like it), but this stuff was more like paraffin. I'm guessing that's 'cos it was a mix of 3/19ths petrol and 16/19ths diesel? Mind you, it was the high performance diesel... maybe that smells different? In any case, I've now got an interesting mix to throw on the bonfire in 5 odd months time.
How do you make a cat go 'Woof'?
Pour petrol/diesel mix on it.
I'm here all week.
Unfortunately.
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Glad you got it sorted.....I’ve done the same :P
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Never done it on the bike but put petrol in my first diesel car once, got about three miles before it died.
Swimbo once put diesel in her petrol Polo at Tesco in Newbury. Realised what she had done and didn't start it. A couple of likely lads helped push it off the pumps and the cashier gave her a number for a guy who specialises in syphoning and draining.
Quoted her £120 (twenty years ago, plus a new filter and a hideous price for 'disposal' i.e. tipping it in his van) Oh, and he couldn't get there for two hours.
She walked over the road to the VW dealership and two lads wandered over and pushed it into their workshop, drained the system, put her spare gallon in for her and one of the techs even paid her for the fuel. Took 25 minutes and cost £60 in labour.
Neither of us have done it again. Damn, that's done it...
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Having diesel cars I've occasionally hesitated over which pump to grab. Er, reset! Now, which vehicle - ah, motorbike = green.
Rubbish brain.
Isn't one nozzle/filler hole smaller than the other, on purpose?
But which is it - and if so, why?
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Regardless draining a fuel tank and letting it stand for 2 years is a bloody bad idea, half a tank at least, if your OCD..when you need the bike drain it out, it’ll run fine in the mower and put fresh in.
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it’ll run fine in the mower
I tried that with my little electric mower and it went 'poof' and now won't mow a meadow for toffee...
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Having diesel cars I've occasionally hesitated over which pump to grab. Er, reset! Now, which vehicle - ah, motorbike = green.
Rubbish brain.
Isn't one nozzle/filler hole smaller than the other, on purpose?
But which is it - and if so, why?
Shirley it should be one square, one triangle!
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Idiots like me would still fit the triangle into the square hole.
I've no idea how I managed it - the nozzle fit into the tank with no problems at all.
Good news though - the bike passed it's MOT yesterday, so went for a good ride afterwards, all working fine. And feeling strangely lubricated (the bike, not me.... I don't drink & ride!)
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The next version of "greener" petrol is E10, which is being introduced, Wonder what will happen to the K fuel system with the additional ethanol? ::) Petrol tanks and seals leaking, poor running etc. This may cause lots of problems for older vehicle owners,
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The next version of "greener" petrol is E10, which is being introduced, Wonder what will happen to the K fuel system with the additional ethanol? ::) Petrol tanks and seals leaking, poor running etc. This may cause lots of problems for older vehicle owners,
Ah, I checked yesterday and all BMW motorbikes are fine for E10. However, I've never knowingly tried it.
https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-e10-petrol
and select Motorrad BMW
To quote:
All models are compatible with E10. However the number of octanes needs to be compatible with the model according to user handbook.
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The next version of "greener" petrol is E10, which is being introduced, Wonder what will happen to the K fuel system with the additional ethanol? ::) Petrol tanks and seals leaking, poor running etc. This may cause lots of problems for older vehicle owners,
Ah, I checked yesterday and all BMW motorbikes are fine for E10. However, I've never knowingly tried it.
https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-e10-petrol
and select Motorrad BMW
To quote:
All models are compatible with E10. However the number of octanes needs to be compatible with the model according to user handbook.
I think there might be a difference between;
i) will it run on it without pinking, spitting, farting or imploding?
ii) will it require seal and other component replacement 3 to 4 times as often as it would have previously?
My expectation is that the link answers i) above but not ii). But, then, I'm a grumpy old cynic!
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RAC says:
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/emissions/what-is-e10-fuel-and-how-could-it-affect-you/
The RAC understands that if you put E10 fuel in an incompatible car it will still run, but seals, plastics and metals may be damaged over longer periods as a result of bioethanol's corrosive properties.
There have also been reports that E10 is a less stable fuel and that this can make it more difficult to start a vehicle that has not been driven for an extended period.
So I reckon we're still OK. Even the Kawasakis. :o
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KTM's had a horrible problem with Ethanol causing tanks to swell. I always dreaded taking my tank off cos it would be a massive struggle to get it back on.
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KTM's had a horrible problem with Ethanol causing tanks to swell. I always dreaded taking my tank off cos it would be a massive struggle to get it back on.
Ooh. What year was the KTM?